In Leman Terms: How Birth Order Affects You
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TERRY MEEUWSEN: Why are some kids geared for perfect success and others destined to be the class clowns? Our next guest says it has a lot to do with your birth order, and he's here to explain more about how it can impact our personality, relationships, and even our career path. Dr. Leman, welcome. Great to have you here.
Dr. KEVIN LEMAN: Thank you, Terry.
MEEUWSEN: How did you discover that there was a correlation between birth order and our personalities? What was the thing that tipped you off to that?
Dr. LEMAN: It was 1966. I was sitting there in a classroom at the University of Arizona listening to a man talking about birth order. He described the firstborn as the reliable, conscientious one, the list-maker, the one who doesn't like surprises, the achievement-oriented one, the standard-bearer of the family. And all I could think of was my sister Sally.
MEEUWSEN: And did she fall into that?
Dr. LEMAN: Oh, absolutely. She ties bows on the garbage bags.
MEEUWSEN: Oh, my goodness.
Dr. LEMAN: There's a clear vinyl runner in her home. Take it to any room in the house. You know the feeling? She puts newspaper under the cuckoo clock. That I don't understand. She's into neatness and doing things right.
Then he talked about this middle child, this rough and tumble, competitive middle child, fewest pictures in the family photo album, and I thought of my brother Jack. Jack was the firstborn son. He had my dad's name--he was John Jr. We called him Jack. He was very much a middle child, but he also ended up a clinical psychologist, pretty good student, quarterback on the football team, well liked by everybody.
Then came the little baby, the little schnooky of the family. That was me. He talked about these people that had this sense of humor and were fun-loving and affectionate, manipulative, outgoing, never met a stranger, natural salespeople, and I thought, `How can this guy nail our family so one, two, three?' So I've been studying birth order literally for over 30 years.
MEEUWSEN: You've researched and studied the lives of a number of celebrities. Name some people that we would know and what you found.
Dr. LEMAN: Well, Harrison Ford, for example, leading actor; presidents of the United States, firstborn children, only-born children. Only three natural babies have ever made it to the White House, probably bcause they couldn't find it, I don't know. The most famous, by the way, of all the babies was a fellow called "Ronnie," Ron Reagan, baby of the family. And they called him--What?--`The Great Communicator.'
MEEUWSEN: Yeah.
Dr. LEMAN: That marriage, the insider says, was a great one. Nancy was an only child and President Reagan a baby of the family.
MEEUWSEN: So an only child and a firstborn would fall along the same lines.
Dr. LEMAN: Yes.
MEEUWSEN: Would there be some things for an only child that would even be different from the others?
Dr. LEMAN: Well, onlys--Dr. James Dobson, only child; Steve Allen, who's written 10,000 songs. Only children are in a class by themselves. They're easy to spot. They're seven years old and they're waiting in line for their milk at school. You look down, everybody's got their little Sesame Street lunch pails or their Barney lunch pails, and here's this kid with an attache case in his hand, you know? It's got a book in it, too. I mean, they get along with people who are much older than them, Terry.
It always intrigued me how these three or four or five little cubs could come out of the same den and be so unique and so different. Identical twins are genetically the same. Why do they have different fingerprints? Why did God give them different fingerprints? To help the FBI, or was this God's way of saying, `You are my son, you are my daughter, you're different than anybody else'?
MEEUWSEN: Right.
Dr. LEMAN: For me as a believer, that's what birth order means to me, that God loves us all enough to make us all different.
MEEUWSEN: Are there things that we do, as parents, to children that might cause them not to fall into the typical definition?
Dr. LEMAN: Absolutely.
MEEUWSEN: Tell us how this affects our parenting skills.
Dr. LEMAN: Well, you're a firstborn.
MEEUWSEN: Yes, I am.
Dr. LEMAN: You would be what I call a classy firstborn. I hope you'll take that OK. I mean, you're one that's going to do things right.
MEEUWSEN: I do.
Dr. LEMAN: There are firstborn children who are watching us right now, and they hear me describe the firstborn as reliable, conscientious, neat and clean, dependable and all those wonderful things, and they say, `Boy, you missed me. To put it bluntly, Doc, I'm a slob.' I said, `I know, I've been to your office. I've seen your desk. You have piles all over the desk.' The irony is, if someone comes in and says, `Where's that report?' this firstborn knows exactly where to find it. You want to goof this person up? Change their piles.
Now here's the kicker: One thing I know about that person, they're a procrastinator. I also know this: They grew up with a critical-eyed parent, a parent who could spot a flaw at 40 paces. In other words, if you're a female and you deal with piles in your life, chances are you had a dad who could spot a flaw really quickly. There's great advice in "The New Birth Order Book" for parents and married people, even business people, how people buy differently and sell differently. But that critical eye, Terry, could just blow things right out of the water. If the firstborn ends up being defeated, that pile maker, the second one--guess what?
MEEUWSEN: Rises to the top?
Dr. LEMAN: Takes over and defeats the firstborn child, and that's what makes it really interesting.
MEEUWSEN: Now what about marriage, because I know I've read some of your other books. I know my husband and I are probably the worst combination. He's the firstborn of four; I'm a firstborn of four. So we both grew up in the same position with the same number of siblings in the family.
Dr. LEMAN: Well, having two bossy little suckers in a marriage gets interesting
MEEUWSEN: Yes, it does.
Dr. LEMAN: And wearing a helmet at the breakfast table takes some skill. But seriously, if one of you is a perfectionist, that's tolerable. If both of you are perfectionists, then it becomes a little bit like two mountain sheep butting heads for territorial rights.
MEEUWSEN: Yes.
Dr. LEMAN: So it does get interesting. There's a husband driving down the street, and he hangs a left-hand turn. As only his firstborn wife can say, 'Why are you turning here? All you have got to do is hop on I-64. You'll be there in a second.' In other words, they're great improvers.
They're great `should-ers,' so they're always `shoulding' on people they love, like, `You should do this, and you should do that,' which is just the opposite of that agape-like `I love you just the way you are' kind of love you want to have in families.
MEEUWSEN: We do tend to think that it's not just a matter of our opinion, it's the right way to do it.
Dr. LEMAN: Oh well, I mean, they're the stars. They are the presence. They're the astronauts into outer space. Of the first 23, 21 firstborns, two onlys, not a middle or a baby in sight. So, if your little son Buford is making noise now, the youngest child, about being an astronaut, this would be a good time to take him down to Denny's and show him what the guy does in the back there with those eggs.
MEEUWSEN: You talk also in the book about something that you haven't done a lot of before, and that's how this can affect you in the workplace.
Dr. LEMAN: Oh, it does.
MEEUWSEN: How do you use that?
Dr. LEMAN: Well, I get a chance to speak to businesspeople, CEO people, young presidents organizations, people all over the world. In fact, Steve Forbes--who is a middle child, by the way--the guy ran for president. I did a presentation in Munich, Germany, and it was great to see these high-level executives--here's their body language when I get up to talk: 'Who's this guy? Who's the fat little psychologist? What's he talking about?' Birth order. Within five minutes, they had their notes out, they're shaking their heads, they're affirming me.
Firstborns, when they buy a new car, they read Car and Driver magazine, they read Consumers' Report. I mean, they're detailed. Us babies--the Billy Crystals, the Eddie Murphys, the Whoopi Goldbergs, the Drew Careys, the Jim Carreys, the Kevin Lemans, the Chuck Swindolls--we walk on the car lot and say such profound things like, `Do you have a green one? You do? And it's got a CD and leather? I'll take it.'
It's just that we buy things differently; we sell things differently; we manage people differently. By the way, those middle children who got the tiniest part of this interview are the entrepreneurs; they're the Bill Gates; they're the Michael J. Foxes; they're the Leeza Gibbons; they're nice people; they're the Pat Robertsons.
MEEUWSEN: In my family, the oldest is a boy, my next is the only girl, and then I have two more boys.
Dr. LEMAN: Right.
MEEUWSEN: That's almost like being the first. Isn't it?
Dr. LEMAN: Yeah, she's got it made. Now there's a woman who's going to understand men, and there's a woman whose husband is going to be looking for her sometime at a party, when all the men are this way and all the women are this way. A clue for that future husband would be to look for her among all the men, because she's giving high-fives or low-fives.
MEEUWSEN: I think I'll keep this secret safe for a few years. There is so much fascinating information in The New Birth Order Book. It's always fun to have you here.
Dr. LEMAN: Thanks, Terry.
