- Dr. Collins, thank youso much for your time.

It's great to see you again.

- Lorie, it's nice to be with you.

Glad to have a chancefor this conversation.

- So it's been about a yearsince this pandemic began.

If you would, please, sir, just at first

give us your overall impressions

about where we are rightnow and in particular

if you could address so manyof our Christian viewers.

- Well, I'm a Christianalso, so I'm glad to do that.

It's been an incrediblydifficult year, let's be honest.

We've lost more thanhalf a million Americans

to this terrible virus as it has spread

rather wildly through various communities,

and it's not done with us yet.

This virus, which came out of China

and which had the reallyunfortunate property

of being able to infecta fair number of people

who didn't even know they had it

but were still capable of spreading it,

which made it very hardto get under control.

And we've learned a lotin the course of that year

and we've developed moreeffective treatments.

Things like monoclonal antibodies,

so that people who doend up in the hospital

have a better chance of survival,

but we're still losing way too many people

especially those at higher risk,

the elderly people with chronic diseases.

Here we are now, March of 2021,

and I think one could say thatthere is some real optimism

that we're gonna get through this

because of the ability nowto be able to fight back

against this virus both with treatments

that seem to be more successful

but also with vaccines.

The vaccines, which I've had a big part

in helping get developed,

have been tested in the mostrigorous imaginable trials.

They've been shown safe and effective.

And there are now three of them

that have been granted emergency use

authorization by the FDA.

And we are now at the point

where more and more peopleare getting immunized.

And we have a good pathway

towards getting almost allof the adults in the country

the opportunity forimmunization by June or so,

which is our best hope of being able

to put this pandemic behind us,

and something that sciencehas really pulled out

all the stops in orderto make that happen.

And for me as a scientist,who's also a Christian,

this is an answer to a lot of prayers

and it feels as if this is the way

in which God is helpingus get through this.

- You mentioned the vaccines,now we have three available.

A lot of people are wonderingwhich one they should take.

What's your advice about that?

- Well, my advice is to take the one

that's offered to youand take it right now.

The sooner we can getmore people immunized,

the sooner we can see the number of cases

and hospitalizations anddeaths head down towards zero

which is where it needs be.

We've had a drop in themost severe case numbers

in the course of thelast month and a half,

but it's still stuck in aplateau at much too high a level.

So we really wanna pushthe vaccine efforts.

Yeah, there are three different vaccines:

Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson.

They all seem to haveessentially 100% effectiveness

in preventing hospitalizations and deaths.

There's a little difference maybe

in terms of their abilityto prevent mild disease,

but I think most peopleare mostly interested

in severe disease.

They're all really good at that.

The Johnson & Johnsonvaccine is a single dose

which some people will find appealing.

You don't have to come back

for that second shotthree or four weeks later.

But I think they've all beenput through rigorous testing.

I would be happy with any one of them.

If you get the offer to get vaccinated,

I wouldn't negotiate aboutwhich one, just take it.

- The New Orleans Archdiocesecame out with a statement

saying that the Johnson &Johnson vaccine should be avoided

among pro-life peoplebecause some fetal cell lines

were used in itsdevelopment and production.

What's your response to that?

- It's a very important issue

for individuals who are very committed

to a pro-life perspective to understand

and to learn more about it.

I saw that statement from New Orleans.

I've also seen thestatements from the Vatican

which don't quite takethe same perspective.

So what is this all about?

Basically, the vaccines thatJohnson & Johnson is producing,

there's another one by AstraZeneca

which is not approved yet in the U.S.,

they require that you growthe vaccine in cell lines

because that's the way in whichthe production can happen.

And cell lines that werederived more than 50 years ago

are the way in whichthis is generally done.

And these are cell lines that were derived

from an elective pregnancy termination

done in Scandinavia whenit was legal at that point

and then turned into theseessentially immortal cell lines

that are grown in the labby many different companies.

Some people are, I think,troubled by the idea

that the vaccine that'sgoing into their arm

had that history.

It does not have any of those cells in it,

but it has that history ofhaving been used in that way.

And I understand thereforewhy some will look

at the Johnson & Johnsonvaccine and think maybe

that's not the one I would prefer to get.

The Pfizer and the Modernavaccines don't require this,

they don't require anykind of cell line growth

in order to be produced.

Just the same, I think reasonable people

will have reasonably different views

in terms of whether this is something

that a pro-life individual should avoid.

After all, this is five decades removed

from the event that we're concerned about.

And certainly, the CatholicChurch as represented

by the Vatican has said it is moral

for individuals to takeadvantage of such vaccines

if in so doing they maybe helping save lives.

And we do believe all ofthese vaccines can save lives.

- So do you recommendpeople wait and put...

If they're offered theJohnson & Johnson vaccine,

a lot of people might wanna wait

until they can get thePfizer or Moderna one.

What is your thought about that?

- I think that's verymuch up to the individual.

I don't want to insert my ideaabout what is a moral choice

into the middle of somethingthat's very personal.

I think this is a circumstance people

can learn more about simplyby reading what's out there

and then make their own personal decision.

Whether this represents for them

the kind of barrier that they would

really rather not take advantage

of such a vaccine as Johnson & Johnson,

or whether considering thefive decades that have passed

and the fact that thesecells are not in the vaccine,

then that's an acceptableway to take advantage

of something lifesaving.

Frankly, people should realize

you're probably notgonna be in a situation

where you have a menu andyou get to pick which vaccine

you're gonna be able to receive that day.

Most of the time, clinics will be set up

and they'll invite you to come.

And I would be reluctant to suggest

that anybody should just wait

until they get the one they like,

'cause that might be waiting a while.

In the meantime, peoplecan still get sick.

- So if you would pleaseelaborate a little bit

about the timing of this.

Is there a need to hurryup and get vaccinated?

Because we think aboutsome of these variants

that have been identifiedin the United States,

particularly the UK andthe South African variants.

So is time of the essence

or do people have the luxury of waiting

until they get the vaccinethey want, for example?

- That's a great question, Lorie,

and I do think time is of theessence, and for two reasons.

One is the virus is stillspreading in most communities.

That means people are still getting sick,

70,000 people every dayin the United States.

And some of those peopleare gonna do badly.

And if they were already vaccinated,

that would probably nothave happened to them.

So just to save lives,the sooner we can get more

and more people immunized, the better.

But secondly, you raisedthe issue of these variants.

We are watching closely as this virus

slightly changes its spike protein coat

which is the thing thatwe're most worried about

because that can result inthe virus eluding the response

to the vaccines that we have planned.

So far we're okay.

The variants like theSouth African variant,

the British variant,the Brazilian variant,

while they are troubling andthey may be more infectious

in terms of their ability to spread,

they do seem to be those that the vaccine

should still provide protection.

So the sooner we get people vaccinated,

the better chance we haveto head off what otherwise

could be a fourth wave of the illness

from those new highly infectious variants.

One other thing I might say

is if we don't wantmore variants to emerge

that might be even more troubling,

the best way to prevent that

is to get as many peopleimmune as soon as possible

because the virus doesn'tchange its instruction book

unless it copies itself.

And it doesn't copy itself

unless somebody has been infected with it.

As soon as we can reducethe number of infections,

we're reducing the chance ofsome other variant emerging

that might be even more troubling.

- So that's an interestingpoint, because so many people,

particularly young andrelatively healthy people,

haven't been too concernedabout catching COVID-19

because they think, well, I'llprobably have a mild case,

perhaps rightly thinking so.

But when you talk aboutthe idea of variants

and even people whohave asymptomatic cases

or mild cases can contributeto these variants taking hold,

it becomes a different issue, doesn't it?

- You're exactly right.

And if we really want toput an end to that risk,

we need to spread this protective blanket

of immunity across all of humanity.

And of course, we're talking right now

about the United States,

but we need to think aboutthe rest of the world too.

That's the best way to put this virus

in the rear view mirror.

And that includes young people too

who may view themselvesas not so much at risk

if they get infected,

but they could still keep spreading it.

They could still be the placewhere new variants appear.

So it's up to all of them aswell to embrace the opportunity

for a vaccine once it's offered to them.

Most of them so far haven'thad the offering happen

because the way the vaccinesare being distributed

is focused appropriatelyon the highest risk people.

And somebody in theirtwenties with no illnesses

hasn't yet been asked

if they'd be willing toroll up their sleeve,

but that time is coming as soonas a month or two from now.

And I think it'll be very important

for all of those folks to say, yes,

maybe this isn't all togethergonna be critical for me,

but it might be critical formy neighbors, my grandparents,

for other people in theworld who are depending

on all of us to take part in this.

This is a love your neighbor moment

where we all have thechance to do something

not just for ourselves, butfor everybody around us.

- If you could elaborateon that a little bit too

from a Christian perspective,

do you think that froma Christian perspective,

does Jesus, for example,

have an opinion about how we behave

during this pandemic andeven whether we get vaccines?

Do you think that the Biblespeaks to these issues?

- I think the Bible speaksto virtually every issue

and that's where I often go

when I'm trying to sort something out

that I can't figure out on my own.

And certainly when you seehow much time Jesus spent

in the little we know about hisearthly time doing healings,

I think we were supposed to notice

that healing was an action

that we should try to emulate.

And even Jesus sometimes usedthings like water and mud.

Well, maybe that was hisparticular divine way

of accomplishing a healing.

We humans as God's childrenhave been given the tools

of science to kind ofcome up with our own way

to work through God's grace

to provide an opportunityto prevent suffering.

And I think that's what vaccines are

and have been all along.

So, yeah, I think we're called to that.

And I think as you weregoing a minute ago,

this is not just aboutsort of self-serving,

I wanna be sure I don't get sick.

It really does come down to,are we going to take part

in something that willhelp others around us?

Think particularly of those individuals

who have immune suppression,

people who have cancerand whose immune systems

have been damaged by the chemotherapy,

the vaccine isn't gonna workvery well for those folks.

They won't respond to it.

So their best chanceof not getting infected

is not to be around otherpeople who might be carrying it.

Okay, that could be any one of us.

If you think that somehowyou're not the person

that could do this, think again,

and then maybe sign up for the vaccine

and oh yeah, by the way,wear your mask as well,

because that's anotherway for the time being

until we're all vaccinated

we can keep from spreadingthis terrible virus.

- Well, you talked about the case number

being too high right now,too high for comfort,

but can you switch andtalk about the death count?

We've seen that deaths aredown and we know so many people

in nursing homes havealready been vaccinated

and an estimated one halfof people over the age of 65

have gotten at leastone dose of the vaccine.

Do you anticipate the deaths

going back up because of those facts?

- You know, it isencouraging to see the number

of deaths each day has come down.

It was as high as 3,000 almostevery day back in January.

Now we're down to about 1,000,

but of course that'sstill an incredible number

of people losing their lives.

One of the reasons it hascome down, as you say,

is because nursing homes whereso many deaths were happening

are now in the front linesof getting the vaccines.

And you can see the results of that,

deaths in nursing homes have plummeted,

but they're stillhappening in other places.

And they are happening not just to people

who are quite elderly, butthere are lots of people

in their fifties and sixtieswho are also getting sick

and dying from this disease.

It doesn't spare really anyone,

even young people occasionally.

So we're on the right path here

in terms of seeing thedeath rates starting down,

the vaccines are helping.

Maybe people's willingness to continue

to follow these public health measures

even though I knowwe're all tired of them,

of wearing the mask and staying apart

and not congregatingindoors without masks on,

maybe that's helping as well,

although we need to doubledown on those right now.

The concern, Lorie, is that those variants

that we were talking about

which may be more infectious,could turn this around.

That one from the UKcalled B.1.1.7 is doubling

in its frequency in theUnited States every 10 days.

And that kind of exponential growth

is quite a source of concern,

need to watch that really closely.

And our best protection against that

is to do everything we can rightnow to get people immunized

or to prevent them fromspreading the disease.

- Do you think people havea false sense of security

because the case numbers and the deaths

and the hospitalizations have dropped

so dramatically since January?

- I do think the dramatic drop

encouraged people to think,okay, maybe it's finally over.

But watch those curves, thatdrop which was so gratifying

for three or four weeks, stopped dropping.

And now we're in thisplateau where day after day

the numbers of new cases, thenumber of hospitalizations,

the number of deaths is staying the same.

It should be coming down.

If it's not coming down,we should worry about that

and we should double down

on everything we can do to change that.

(crosstalk)

I know I sound like a downer here

and I know everybody is like,

could you please just giveus some encouraging news?

Let me do that too.

I think we're on a good path here.

I think we're going to get through this.

I think by this summer,life has a reasonable chance

of getting back to somethingyou would recognize as normal.

See where vaccinatedpeople can gather together,

take their masks off and hug each other.

But we're not there yet,

and this would be a terriblemoment to lose our momentum

just when we can kindof see the goal line.

If you're a fan of a football game,

you don't wanna see theguy who's carrying the ball

stumble on the 15-yard line

when he had a clear shot atthe goal, that's kind of us.

Let's not stumble, people.

- So once again, if you couldmake your recommendations,

you already said people

should get their vaccineas soon as possible

regardless of whichvaccine they're offered.

And can you again makeyour recommendations,

especially again tothe Christian community

regarding the masks andthe social distancing,

which a lot of people havebeen resistant to up until now.

- I know, and I understandall the messages

that have been spreadaround that make you wonder,

wait a minute, is this really something

that's based on evidence?

Let me assure you it is,

but let me also be sure toexplain that I'm sympathetic

with people who are wonderingwhy they have to do this.

What was it, Theodore Roosevelt said,

"People don't care what you know

until they know that you care."

I do wanna say all of us whoare working in public health,

we do care about the fact

that this is an enormousburden on everybody

and that everybody istired and discouraged,

they've lost family members,

their economic situation is in trouble.

It's like, please don't giveme another bit of bad news,

but this doesn't have to be bad news.

This is basically something

that we especially as Christianscan do to love each other,

to love our neighbors, totry to do as Jesus calls us

to be the best we can bein a difficult situation

even with suffering around us.

And that does mean, yes,

when you get the chancefor that vaccine, take it.

You're helping yourself.

You're helping everybody around you.

And yes, in the meantime,

wear your mask whenever you're outside

'cause you might be that personwho unwittingly is infected

with no symptoms and yetare spreading it to others

and putting their lives at risk.

It's a simple measure.

Don't listen to thosefolks who try to tell you

that a mask is a politicalstatement, it's not,

or who tell you that it'san invasion of your freedom.

Well, okay, maybe like a seatbelt,

but isn't that something you'd wanna do

if it's gonna save somebody else's life?

It's just a life-saving medical device.

Use it as such and be grateful

that we have somethingwe can all do together

to keep this from getting any worse.

- When do you think we might have

more vaccines available to the U.S.?

- Well, the manufacturing isgoing up quite steeply now.

Pfizer and Moderna announceda couple of weeks ago

that they had gotten some of the bugs

out of their factory production

and they were gonna beable to beef that up

further than they had expected.

So we should be in Marchgetting to the point

of 3 or 4 million dosesgoing into arms every day,

which is really a wonderfulkind of trajectory to be on.

And now with Johnson &Johnson getting also approved,

they will add theirs.

Already, the president hassaid by the end of July

we'll have 600 million doses.

That's enough for 300 million people

'cause it's two doses per person.

That pretty much would get us there

in terms of the adults in the country.

We still don't have approval for kids.

And you add on top of that,the Johnson & Johnson doses

which will be 100 million by June,

and that's one dose per person.

I think if all goes wellwith the distribution

and if people are willing toroll up their sleeves and say,

yeah, I want this too,

we could be by the end ofJune in that remarkable place

we call herd immunity,which is a terrible term

that makes it sound like we're all cattle,

but I'd rather call it thisblanket protection of immunity

so that this virus basicallyloses its grip on us

and we get to go back to living the way

we all thought we would beable to until this came along.

- So best case scenario,

we may be able to throw awayour masks by 4th of July,

or is that too optimistic?

- I think by 4th of Julywould be optimistic,

but maybe that's achievable.

And again, that means throw away your mask

if you're gathered with other people

who are all also immunized.

If a lot of us decide, no,

I don't want that vaccine,I'm not taking it,

then if I'm around one of those people,

I gotta put my mask back on

because I might still be theone to give them an illness

that's gonna make them sick.

So come on, everybody,let's do this together.

It'll be so much simpler that way.

- All right, Dr. Collins,

unfortunately, we'reout of time right now,

but we just wanted to thankyou so much for number one,

your dedication and yourservice to the Lord.

And also for the hardwork that you've done

as the director of theNational Institutes of Health.

So thank you so muchfor being with us today.

- Well, Lorie, thank you.

And again, I'm always glad to talk

to other believers about this situation.

And I cling to many of those scriptures

that encourage me at a time like this,

something like 2 Timothy 1:7,

we have not been given a spirit of fear,

even though it's temptingnow to get fearful.

We've been given a spirit of power

and love and self-control.

Let's celebrate thatand give thanks to God

that we are in that situation.

- Amen. What a great wayto end this interview.

Thank you again, Dr. Collins.