Well, Caleb has a very unique story.

Caleb Kaltenbach is with us now.

Welcome.

Hey, thanks having me.

Good to have you here.

What was it like for you to be raised in the community?

LGBT community?

You know, it was definitely a very interesting experience.

It was a very fun community, at least the people

that my mom spent time with.

But it was also a very passionate community.

My mom joined the board of directors for Glad

in the local Kansas City area, she and her partner.

And as a young elementary age student,

they took me with them to gay bars, and parties,

and pride parades, and camp outs, and events.

And as many people have heard, I marched in these parades.

And I even remember people spraying urine on people

and holding up signs.

And I remember walking into a hospital room one time

and watching one of my friends die from AIDS, who was an older

man-- one of my mom's friends-- and seeing his Christian family

shun him and not talk to us or them.

And really, my mother just drilled in my head,

hey, if you're a Christian, you don't like people

who are different from you.

And so, for me, I grew up, I couldn't stand Christians.

So how did you, this kid who didn't like Christians

because you felt they didn't like the gay community,

how did you find Christ in your life?

Well, I got invited when I was in high school--

about 16 years old-- to this Bible study,

led by a high schooler for high schoolers.

And so I thought I'd be a ninja Christian.

I'd pretend to be a Christian and really I'd

learn about Christianity and dismantle their faith.

And so I went, and I remember I grabbed this old Bible

off the shelf because I'd never own one,

and I walked into the house, and I'd never been

in a Christian house before.

And the first thing I noticed was,

why do these people have pictures of sheep,

and lions, and Bible verses all over their hallway?

And I looked to my friend, I said,

is that part of the deal when I turn Christian,

do I have to get a sheep picture or something like that?

And I went down to this Bible study

and they were all reading out of 1 Corinthians,

and I was in 1 Chronicles.

And I learned real quick there was an Old and New Testament.

But I learned that, actually, the Jesus of the Gospels,

he was not like the people in the street corners

or the people in the hospital, alienating their kids,

that Jesus was different.

He started to convict my worldview,

and I didn't end up changing anybody else's.

That Jesus had very deep theological convictions,

but he also had very deep relationships

with people who are not like him, people

who are far from God.

So you become a Christ follower,

and then you have this time where

you need to tell your parents about the change in your life.

How did that go?

Over like a lead balloon, that's how it went.

I remember-- here's the best way to describe it.

If you can imagine how a same-sex attracted

or gay teenager feels when they come out

to their Christian parents, I was

a 16-year-old Christian teenager coming out

to my three gay parents.

And they disown me.

The same treatment that some people

say that they get from their Christian parents,

I got from my LGBT parents because they

feared this extremism, and they cast

that fear right back on to me.

That's how they reacted.

Your book's really interesting as you break down

a lot of the reasons why the gay community

and the Christian community seem to butt heads,

and the fears involved for both.

So, for someone who's a Christian,

and if someone comes out to them and expresses,

hey, I'm homosexual, give some perspective

on a good way for that Christ follower to respond.

I would say a few things.

Number one, don't look disappointed.

I know that we can't always control our reactions,

but it's a very personal moment.

It's a moment where, even though we do not agree with the choice

to be in a same-sex relationship,

or we may not understand what they mean when they say

that they're same-sex attracted, they still care enough about us

to tell us, to let us into that personal part of their life.

So we need to honor that and not look disappointed.

Don't get mad, don't try to get them counseling.

Everybody needs counseling, but that's not the time.

It's not the time to throw out Bible verses because I'm

willing to bet that the person telling you

knows you well enough to know what you

think the Bible says about it.

And the last thing I would say is, don't compare sins.

Don't compare them to a murderer, or a thief.

Don't say well that's like any other sin

because in their mind, you're comparing them

to Hannibal Lecter and Gordon Gekko,

and they don't see that same comparison.

So in this very vulnerable moment,

OK, some Christians may respond and say,

well you need to just stop being gay.

What is a homosexual really hearing in that statement?

Somebody who hears a Christian say something like that,

the person who is same-sex attracted

or identifies as LGBT community, they see it as an identity.

So what they hear the Christian say is, give up who you are.

Because a lot of the times in Christianity

we think that somebody identifies as LGBT

because of who they want to be sexually intimate with.

But I remember my mother and her partner,

my mom told me one time that they

didn't have sexual intimacy the last several years

of their relationship.

And I asked my mom, I said, so you weren't a lesbian anymore?

And she said, well sure I was.

Those are my people, my community, my relationships.

That's the movement, the cause I'm involved in.

And it really dawned on me that for her, it wasn't

about the sexual intimacy.

It was about belonging.

It was about a safe place, it was about relationships.

And so I think we need to understand that, yes, we

do need to have difficult conversations

about sexual intimacy and other standards of holy living,

but that's not where we start.

Because we don't want to reduce somebody

down to their sexual orientation if we're telling people

not to define themselves by their sexual orientation.

And so, for Christians who want to be supportive

perhaps, or loving, how do they navigate

the fact that at the same time they

may not want to be an advocate for this lifestyle?

We need to understand that there's

a big difference between acceptance and approval.

That we should accept everybody, no matter what.

And that means you love them where they're at in their life.

That doesn't mean we approve of every life choice.

Every weekend I shake hands with people in my church,

I'm sure I don't approve of every life choice.

But you know what?

My acceptance for them is based on my love for God,

and I love them where they're at.

Tell us about the interesting change that

occurred in your parents life.

So, my mother's partner died after 22 years,

and she died without Christ.

My mom went through a deep depression

because they'd been together 22 years, right?

And so my family and I moved to Dallas, Texas

for 3 and 1/2 years, after pastoring

in Southern California, so that I could go preach at a church.

We left the summer of 2013 to go pastor Discovery Church,

where I'm at now, in Simi Valley.

But when we were in Dallas, both my parents, separate of one

another, moved there to be closer to our family.

And then they started attending my church.

These people who were the card carrying members

of the ACLU, who my mom was on the board of directors

for Glad, they were both professors

that argued against the rationalization

of Christianity.

They started attending my church.

And two weeks before we left to go to California, both of them

submitted their lives to Christ.

And it's incredible.

I have no idea how all that goes together.

It was just an incredible thing to see.

And Caleb, why is your book called "Messy Grace"?

Interesting title.

It's not because God's grace is messy.

Some people think that.

It's because our lives are messy.

We're all messy people.

You and me.

First two letters of messy are the letters, M-E. Me, right?

But God's grace seems messy when it intersects our lives.

And yet, just like God had compassion on Nineveh

in the book of Jonah, right-- Jonas told God, he said,

I knew that you would be quick to compassion and mercy

and grace.

And I think nothing's changed.

I think God looks for opportunities to be gracious.

Interesting story, Caleb, and it's a great book.

I really want to encourage you to get it because Caleb doesn't

instruct or tell us how to respond to various communities,

but he really gives us some wonderful perspective

and things to consider we may not have before.

So if you'd like to pick it up, it's called "Messy Grace".

It's available wherever books are sold.

Caleb, thanks again for being with us.

Thanks for having me.

We really appreciate it.