- As a two-term governor and mayor,

Bill Haslam has been embeddedin the politics and policy

at local, state, and federal levels,

from healthcare and welfare

to pardons and free college tuition.

His book, "Faithful Presence:

The Promise and the Peril ofFaith in the Public Square,"

calls for that unique andredemptive role in politics.

If I may, Bill?

- Sure, please.

- The public square, moreof a fighting octagon.

What has fueled that intensity?

- Since our country'sfounders, there's been battles.

But here's what's new.

You can choose where you getnews from a variety of places.

You also can go on social media

and talk to people who lookand think and act like you do.

So it's made all of us thinknot only are we divided,

but we're mad and we'reimpugning bad motives

to the other side as well.

- There is the ongoing concern

that American democracy is in trouble.

- [Bill] Right.

- What concerns you most?

- We've lost the desire for real dialogue.

The subtext of the Constitution

is there would have to benegotiation back and forth.

Some of our folks think the job

is to play a senator on social media

or play a governor on social media

instead of I'm gonna sitdown with the other side

and see if we can solve the problem.

- What do Christiansfear most, do you think,

in what they're losing politically?

- I think, unfortunately, a lot of us

have become driven by fear.

We look at the world aroundus changing really fast.

The culturally norms are verydifferent now than they were.

It feels like we've gonefrom being the home team

to the visiting teamin about three decades.

Paul writes, "Beloved, I urgeyou as aliens and strangers."

We worry more about losing our country

than we do losing our God.

- How has Christianity lost its standing

as a faithful presence in public debate?

- Okay, we are just as likely

to send some flamingretort on the internet

and say something that Iwould never say to your face.

Jesus was really clear inthe Sermon on the Mount.

The message was be different.

The salt is supposed to bedifferent than the meat.

The light is supposed tobe different than the dark,

and we're not.

We're acting just like everyone else.

And if the salt has lost its saltiness,

it's good for nothingexcept to be thrown out.

We're not holding up our end of the deal

and the consequences aren't great.

- Describe the differencebetween thinking biblically

about our politics and thinkingpolitically about our faith.

- Well, I think a lot of ushave come to define truth

by what we think politically,

and faith is going tofollow what I believe.

And so somehow, we thinkthat the biblical injunctions

about how we're supposed toact don't apply to politics.

They apply everywhere else,

but politics, it matters too much.

The ends matter so muchthat the means are okay

even if they're not biblical means.

- Christians in the public square.

What should the reputation be?

- James writes about earthly wisdom

and wisdom that's from above,

and so if it's wisdom that's from above,

that should be whatwe're known for, right?

Christians as open to reason,impartial, sincere, pure,

gentle, full of mercy.

I don't think many people wouldagree with us unfortunately.

They'd say, no, they're pretty strident.

- Politics is a bloodsport- [Bill] Yeah.

in a contentious culture.- Yeah.

How, then, do the meek compete?

- Meek does not mean weak.

Jesus says blessed are the meek

because those are folks who understand

that we're not perfect,

that we enter the publicsquare the same way

we enter our homes and our businesses,

as imperfect, broken people.

- What can the churchbring to the public square

altogether absent from politics?

- We can bring some uniquegifts to the public square.

We can be and people,

truth and love, mercy and justice.

Change the conversation.

We've been given the spirit of humility,

and if we'll just act in that,

hear humility out of someone and go,

"Wow, that's a lot moreenticing and persuasive

"than being yelled at."

We should look to have words

that are persuasive and winsome

that actually would change people's minds.

- The thirst for power and self-promotion

comes with the territory.

For the divine mandate of genuine

servant-minded management,- Right.

has narcissistic leadershipbeen overlooked or unconsidered

within spiritual leadership?

- I think the problem is a real one.

We see the issues all the time,

and they manifest themselvesin different ways.

At the heart of a lot of that, I think,

is a narcissism thinkingthis story's about me

and God can't pull this off without me.

I think we're paying the price for it

in terms of the image of ourfaith every time it happens

and in terms of the effectiveness.

Christians are called to self-sacrifice,

which is really differentthan self-actualization,

and we're infected with it too.

And so I think the callmight be stronger now

than it's ever been.

- Former Governor BillHaslam, a pleasure. Thank you.

- Thanks for letting me come.

- The governor's book iscalled "Faithful Presence:

The Promise and the Peril ofFaith in the Public Square,"

and it's available wherever books are sold

and you can get a copy and Ihope it's a blessing for you.

- [Terry] Absolutely.