- Ambassador Dermer thanksfor being with us on CBN News.

- Pleasure to be with you Chris.

- About a week ago there were rockets

that were fired towards Jerusalem.

On Jerusalem day, Israelcelebrating the reunification

of the city.

Here we are a week later, tellus how we got to this point.

- Well, Hamas usesJerusalem as a pretext, just

as they have used manypretexts in the past.

They used Jerusalem as a pretext last week

to launch rockets at the state of Israel.

And frankly, Chris,

what they're trying to do is take over

from Abu Mazen and thePalestinian authority.

This is an internal Palestinian issue

and Israel is the canvas onwhich this is playing out.

But the canvas is our people.

It's our people who are being rocketed.

We've had well over 2000rockets at this point

that had been fired at Israel

that have been fired Israeli civilians.

We have millions ofIsraelis who've had to go

to bomb shelters.

It is something that iscompletely unacceptable

and Israel has to take the steps now

to ensure that we restoresecurity and restored deterrence.

And deterrence is a very, amorphic word.

How do you restore deterrence?

You have to exact such a heavy price

from Hamas that they regretnot only having started this

in the first place,but they think not once

twice, three, four or five times

10 times before doing somethinglike this in the future.

And that's what Israel has been doing.

Taking out Hamas terrorists

taking out their terrorist infrastructure.

We hit their subterraneantunnel network very, very hard

which was an important partof a Hamas' war machine.

And we're going to continueto prosecute this war

until Hamas is deterred and we will do it

as we always have.

Taking steps that no other nation has

to keep the civilians ofour enemy out of harm's way.

That's what Israel is doing.

- How does Israel do that?

- You saw the example and many

of your viewers have probablyseen over the last few days

15 story buildings collapsed.

People should ask themselves

"If a 15 story building collapses

in an urban area, shouldn't you have a lot

a lot of civiliancasualties?", and you don't.

You know why? Because we warned them.

We actually call people.

We then fire a, a weapon thatsort of knocks at the top

of the building, tellingpeople get out of the building.

We give them the time to leave.

And then we take out the building

because we have no desire toharm innocents on their side

but we are facing in Hamas,a terror organization.

Weighted to Israel's destruction

that commits day afterday, multiple times a day

2000 times, they committeda double war crime.

They target our civilians byfiring rockets indiscriminately

into our population center, hoping

to kill as many Israelis as possible.

And Jews they've killed.

They've killed Arabs, it doesn't matter.

They want to kill as many ofour civilians as possible.

But the other thing they do

is they embed theirterrorists infrastructure

in civilian areas.

So they place theirweapons next to schools

next to mosques, next to hospitals.

And they even took over a building.

Military Intelligence of Hamas took over

a building where journalists are

because they want to usethese people as human shields.

Well, these are legitimatemilitary targets.

And even though they'relegitimate military targets

we will take the stepsnecessary to keep civilians

out of harm's way.

We are not perfect.

No army in the world is perfect

but I would ask Americanswho are watching this unfold

in Israel, think about this.

Our army is fighting this war

and surgically going after the terrorists

not thousands of milesaway from our shores.

It's right in our backyardwhen our own population is

in bomb shelters.

So imagine 152 million Americans sitting

in bomb shelters.

What do you think they'dwant their army to do

in order to get at the terroristswho were firing rockets

at them?

That's why I think the IDFis using enormous restraint

in this conflict.

And it's important that the leaders

of the world fully support Israel

and our right to defend ourselves.

- And yet some people accuse Israel

of disproportionate response.

How do you respond to that?- I think it's absurd.

Disproportionate from what?

Look at how other countriesfaced with similar situations

what was the amount offorce that they use?

Israel, I think if you look at war

if you speak to experts in warfare

particularly in urbanareas, they will be shocked

at how much Israel hasdone to keep the civilians

of the enemy out of harm's way.

So I don't think we

we have used disproportionateforce at all.

If we were trying to kill Palestinians

if we were reckless in the use of force

you wouldn't see a hundredor 200 people dead.

You won't even see athousand or 2000 people.

You'd see tens of thousandsof Palestinians dead

because of the density ofthe population in Gaza.

But we're doing everything we can

to just strike at the terrorists.

And it's hard becausethey embed themselves

in these civilian areas

and they use thesepeople as human shields.

And here I have to tell you, Chris

the media has an important role to play

because part of Hamas'strategy is to turn the media

into enablers for what they're doing.

How does it work?

They will fire rockets atus, then when we respond to

that rocket fire in those civilian areas

and unfortunately make a mistake

or there's collateraldamage, civilians die.

Then Hamas wants the entireworld to blame Israel.

They want governments inthe world to restrain Israel

to pressure Israel toagree to their terms.

The key to that is themedia because if the media

the media should report oneverything, on everything

but they should lay the blame squarely

where it belongs on Hamas.

And if they understand Hamas that there

the media will not enable them

they will not let them get away with this

with using people as humanshields, then they won't do it.

If they can get awaywith it, they will do it.

- Talk to us about Hamas, who are they?

And what are their goals?

I mean, a lot of people talk about Hamas

but maybe they may not know the backstory.

Who is this group?

- Well, Hamas is a, a terror organization.

They're an Islamic radical group

that has been around for several decades.

They are committed toIsrael's destruction.

And even worse than that

if something could be worse than that

they actually are a genocidal force.

Because their charter calls

for the murder of Jews worldwide.

They took over Gaza in

about 15 years ago in 2006.

They threw out the Palestinian authority

that was then ruling Gaza.

And they have used Gaza as a launching pad

for attacks against Israel.

In the past they've alsoperpetrated a couple

of hundred suicide bombingsagainst Israel where

you know, our buses you'vebeen here for a long time.

So you remember the buses blowing up

and discos and pizza parlors.

Most of those terrorattacks were from Hamas.

Now they fully control Gaza

and they are wedded to our destruction

and want to continue toarm themselves in Gaza

to get stronger andstronger year after year.

And we've had several roundsagainst Hamas in Gaza.

We had it in 2008, we had it in 2012.

We had it in 2014 andnow we have it in 2021.

So it's the fourth time

that we've had these cycles with them.

And it's important forus to hit them so hard

that they will not do thisfor a very, very long time.

And if need be, we may haveto take even further steps.

Look, Israel didn't want thisIsrael then initiate this.

But once Hamas started it,Israel has to make sure

that we exact such a heavyprice that they're not going

to do it for a very long time to come.

- There seems to be growing evidence

that this is not just aPalestinian group against Israel

but that Hamas has been supplied,armed and funded by Iran.

In what way is this Iranproxy fighting Israel?

- There's no question that Iran is

is sitting back and watching this

and hoping to see as muchviolence as possible.

There is another terror organization

in Gaza, Hamas rules Gaza

but there another terrororganization called Islamic Jihad.

They have also launched rockets at Israel.

They are a wholly ownedsubsidiary of Iran.

You also have Hamas thatis backed by Iran as well.

Iran gives them weapons,it gives them training.

There was an IslamicJihad spokesman who just

the other day wasboasting in Arabic media.

That Iran supplies us with the rockets

they supply us with the expertise

and they supply us with the money.

So Hamas is effectively

and Islamic Jihad areserving as proxies of Iran.

And you know, Iran isstirring the pot in Iraq

in Syria, in Lebanon, in Yemen, in Gaza.

That's all of Iran's terrorproxies on the region

which is another reason,Chris, while this is going on

in Gaza, we shouldn't lose sight

of who the big enemy, is Iran.

I hope, very much

that the administration will not go back.

The US administration will not go back

into the dangerous nuclear deal with Iran

and that will continueto keep the pressure

on that Iranian regime thatrepresents a threat to us.

It represents a threatto our Arab neighbors

and it represents a threat topeace throughout the region.

- How important is it forthe US to be backing Israel

at this time? And yet we hear some,

some comments from US Congress men

and women are mostseemingly condemning Israel

for what they're doing.

- It's very important for theUnited States to back Israel.

I'm pleased that thus far

president Biden has been very strong

in backing Israel'sright to defend itself.

And there were times in thepast where we had that support

from US administrations.

I remember in 2012, whenIsrael had a very short round

it was about eight days.

In 2014, it was about 50 days.

And I think one of thedifferences there was

in 2012 we had the full backing

of the US administration at the time

and in 2014, we didn't.

There was a lot of moral equivalency

a lot of trying to sayboth sides are at fault.

I think when an American president

when US officials are fullybacking Israel's right

to defend itself, that sendsa message to the terrorists

that they will not achieveanything diplomatically

through their efforts.

And that in the US is ensuring

that the world stands behind Israel.

The US holds a very powerful seat

on that UN security council.

And they have historicallybeen the protector

of Israel in the UN security council.

And I was pleased, as I said

to hear what presidentBiden has said thus far.

I hope that that will continuein the critical days ahead.

- You were ambassador for Israel to the US

for seven and a half years.

And you made a commentrecently about the importance

of evangelical Christiansupport for Israel.

How important is that for Israel?

- It's usually important.

You know, the backbone of Israel support

in the world is theUnited States of America.

And the backbone of thatbackbone are evangelicals,

devout Christians wholive in the United States.

And I saw that, I madeit to 47 out of 50 States

during my tenure as ambassador

and throughout Americathere is enormous wellspring

of support among devout Christiansfor the state of Israel.

And we are deeply appreciative of it.

And I hope

that Christians will maketheir voices heard now.

I hope that they willcall their representatives

tell them how importantit is to stand with Israel

because I can tell you something, Chris

and you've seen this in around the world.

Those people who arethe opponents of Israel

they're in the streets

they're waving their flags,they're demonizing Israel.

And it's important that thefriends of Israel go out there

and make clear thatthey stand with Israel.

And, and I'm confident that if they do

that America will stand with Israel.

If America stands with Israel, guess what?

Israel will be strong,and we'll be able to get

through this as quickly as possible.

- I've also heard some people

and you've addressed moral equivalency.

Can you define that?

And some people look at thisas a tit for tat, you know,

and, and you kind ofalready alluded to that.

You know, Hamas attacks, Israel responds

and then you lose sight ofactually who's the aggressor.

- Well, I think a lot ofpeople confuse the situation

and that's what the terrorists want.

They want to throw a cloud around it so

that you can't tell the difference.

You know that old saying,

one man's terrorist isanother man's freedom fighter?

So they want as muchmoral model as possible.

They don't want you tomake a clear distinction

between right and wrong.

They want to say both sides are at fault.

Both sides are not at fault.

On one side you have ademocracy called Israel

that values human life.

The lives of our own citizens

and also the lives of our enemy civilians.

There were those who wereusing as human shields.

On the other side

you have a terror organizationthat glorifies death

that is trying to kill asmany Israelis as possible

and doesn't care about their own people.

They actually will use themin their propaganda wars.

And I don't think any moralequivalency should be made

between the, between the two.

This is a case of right and wrong.

It's good and evil.

It's Israel versus Hamas.

And it's important tostand strongly with Israel.

- Final question ambassador,where do you see this going?

We're almost eight daysinto, into this conflict.

What do you see going forward?

- We didn't start it.

So we have asserted a goalafter it already began

which is again to restore security

and to hit Hamas very, very hard so

that you can restore deterrent.

So that they don't fire rocketsat Israel in the future.

I believe that we've achieveda lot of our military goals.

I think the taking out of thissubterranean terror network

just so that your viewers understand.

They may have heard ofthese terror tunnels

that go from Gaza to Israel.

And the last few years,Israel is a developed means

in order to take out those terror tunnels

and essentially block them underground.

So we've, hopefully,

I don't know if it's a hundred percent

but we blocked a lot ofthose terror tunnels going

into Israel.

But within Gaza

there is an entireinfrastructure of tunnels.

It's a subterranean sortof city where Hamas moves

from one point to the other.

They move their terrorists,they move their arms

they move their missiles.

And this was taking out, taken out

or a good chunk of it wastaken out a few days ago.

And that's a very, veryheavy blow to Hamas.

This is something that they were building

for years and years and years.

Maybe spent a hundred million,200, $300 million to do it.

And it's important thatafter we exact this price

from Hamas, after we'reable to reach a ceasefire

after they've learned their lesson

that when people, when wemove towards rehabilitation

and rebuilding, that whenhumanitarian supplies

which Israel always allows into Gaza

when humanitarian supplies go into Gaza

that we not allow thediversion of those supplies

to rebuild Hamas' military machine.

They were using concrete

that was supposed to go to build schools

and to build hospitalsand they were using it

to build underground bunkers.

Hopefully the world will not again

dance to the tune of Hamas.

Will insist that the supplies go

into Gaza will only be used

to build the civilian infrastructure

and not to build up Hamas'terrorists military capabilities.

- Oh, Ambassador Ron Dermerthanks for joining us.

Appreciate it.- Thank you.