- Well, Ed Stetzer is professorand dean at Wheaton College

where he also serves asthe executive director

of the Wheaton CollegeBilly Graham Center.

Ed, it is always great tosee you, and happy New Year.

Strong words, though,

from the NationalAssociation of Evangelicals.

That statement also says themob at the Capitol was provoked

by leaders like President Trump

who've employed conspiracytheories for political gain.

Ed, you've written about the subject.

How is it that Christians have fallen prey

to such conspiracies?

- Well, it's been a great concern of mine.

I've written not on "USAToday", "Dallas Morning News",

talked about it here on CBN.

And I would say thatthere seems to be a sense

where there's an echochamber promoting ideas

that are unmoored from reality.

It was Pat Robertson himself who said

that President Trump livesin an alternate reality.

Well, I think a lot ofother people are living

in that reality.

And when we eventually get tothe place where we keep saying

and believing things that aren't true,

it can lead to an echochamber, which as we see,

it has lead to violence andactual deaths on Capitol Hill.

- One thing you wrote,"Christians are people of truth,"

so how do we fight againstlies that become so prevalent

in today's highly polarized climate?

- Well, I think, Jesus said,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life,"

and I think ultimately weneed to commit ourselves

to not be easily fooled.

Gullibility is not a spiritual gift,

and it's not a godly virtue.

And I think ultimatelyto see the discipleship

of the mind where we actually can say,

"You know, maybe if thishasn't been reported

"by even more conservative media outlets

"and it's been widelydismissed, maybe it's not true

"and when I read it on the internet,

"but other people I know agree with it."

Well, at the end of the day,

we've got to have adiscipling of our mind.

"There's a scandal ofthe evangelical mind,"

Mark Dahl wrote years ago,

and I think that'sscandal's being played out

in conspiracy theories, and right now,

I think after this CapitolHill storming, this breaching,

more than the Capitol's has been breached.

I think we need to havean evangelical reckoning

about why so many were so easily fooled

during this heartbreaking time.

- Ed, you talked aboutthe words of Jesus saying,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life."

He also described the enemyas the father of lies.

You know, the NAE statementhits on the notion

of Christian nationalism.

Can you explain what that term means?

- Yeah, it's a great question.

So the word conflation is key,

is that Jesus is King.

He's the King of Kingsand the Lord of Lords,

and I want all my allegiance,

my primary allegiance to be him.

I'm also a citizen of this country.

I'm actually a patrioticcitizen of this country.

Before COVID, participatedin July 4th parades.

I read the Declaration of Independence

with my family every July 4th.

But what's happened is whenwe mix these things together,

we end up thinking that Godhas some special relationship

with our country ormaybe a political party

or maybe a political figure.

And at the end of the day,Jesus stands above those things.

And the Psalmist writes thathe laughs as the nations rage.

God laughs as the nations rage

because he stands above those things.

So as the nations rage andall the bitterness and anger,

even in our country right now,

one of the things that'sgonna bring us together,

we need to have this keyof evangelical reckoning.

We need to have hard conversations.

One of the things isgonna bring us together

is to bring our loyalty fully to Jesus,

not some Jesus mixed with, you know,

Jesus wearing an Americanflag or something like that,

but Jesus, and then begood thoughtful citizens

of this country thatcare about moral issues,

that care about religious Liberty,

that care about immigrants and refugees.

But we need to be careful.

We don't wanna mix ourJesus and our patriotism.

When we mix those together,we can both be patriots

and followers of Jesus, butthey're not the same thing.

There are times ourcountries make mistakes,

and our leaders certainly have right now.

- [John] Right.

- Well, Ed, as you know,

a lotta white evangelicalshave been supportive

of the President and his policies.

As the country transitionsinto a new administration,

what wisdom can you offerthose who might be unsure

of what's ahead?

- Well, I do think, as one who'sactually been very thankful

for some of the Supreme Courtjustices that we've seen,

very thankful for religious liberty,

executive orders and more,

I think we're gonna see apretty substantive shift,

and I think this is a shame.

I mean, even seeing the Senatelost in many ways because of,

again, quoting Pat Robertson,

"the very erratic behaviorof President Trump,"

we've seen Democrats actuallynow control the Senate.

And so now you're gonna see things

like the Equality Actbecome a very real concern

that the Coalition for Christian Colleges

and Universities considersan existential threat to us,

to our ministry and to our mission.

So there are gonna bereligious Liberty concerns.

We're gonna have to continueto speak up for life.

We're gonna have to speak up for issues

that may be were assumed

in the last administration, aren't assumed

in this administration.

And I think it's gonna be a hard time,

and I think moving forward,

we're gonna have to steelourselves, disciple ourselves

and band together to showand share the love of Jesus

in a really divided time.

- Ed, we are out of time.

Thank you so much, Ed Stetzer,for being with us today.

- Thank you so much.